Yet more random thoughts... put 'em here

ironpony

Professional Pot-Stirrer
Supporter
When the Amendment was written, the People were the militia. And the militia (the People) were the defense of a free state. It was specifically written to prevent tyranny by a large central government.
That's right! The question is which direction that tyranny would come from? The founders weren't worried that they themselves would direct that tyranny, so they placed the "Army Clause" in Article 1, Section 8. The states demanded the Bill of Rights as a precondition to ratification. They were worried that the officer corps of a large standing army posed that threat - something that a civilian militia wouldn't.

The body of the Constitution states that the government only posses the power granted by the enumerated rights in the document. The 2nd Amendment makes the formation of a militia by the government constitutional - you can even see this in this our governments response to external threats prior to WWII. We maintained a small, relatively weak federal army that was bolstered by large volunteer militia formations.

The paranoia of the government to a great extent was a product of the 1960s. So too is the idea that Americans must be armed to the teeth to hold a hostile federal government at bay. At least own your paranoia @Injun - the Founders weren't worried that they would hold a gun to their own heads.
 

r3gulator3

FLATBED GANGSTER
Supporter
too is the idea that Americans must be armed to the teeth to hold a hostile federal government at bay.
What does it matter what kind of semiautomatic, pump, bolt, lever action, or black powder firearms or the quantity of them and the ammunition for them they have?

I just don’t see a need for joe civilian to have an automatic rifle or machine gun. Or high explosive for that matter.
 

Injun

Rabid Squaw
Staff member
Supporter
That's right! The question is which direction that tyranny would come from? The founders weren't worried that they themselves would direct that tyranny, so they placed the "Army Clause" in Article 1, Section 8. The states demanded the Bill of Rights as a precondition to ratification. They were worried that the officer corps of a large standing army posed that threat - something that a civilian militia wouldn't.

The body of the Constitution states that the government only posses the power granted by the enumerated rights in the document. The 2nd Amendment makes the formation of a militia by the government constitutional - you can even see this in this our governments response to external threats prior to WWII. We maintained a small, relatively weak federal army that was bolstered by large volunteer militia formations.

The paranoia of the government to a great extent was a product of the 1960s. So too is the idea that Americans must be armed to the teeth to hold a hostile federal government at bay. At least own your paranoia @Injun - the Founders weren't worried that they would hold a gun to their own heads.
We are way past the Founders now. They never envisioned a government with millions of pages of regulations, taxes and laws.

Regardless, you did not address the deliberate use of the word "People" in the Second Amendment in comparison to the rest of the Bill of Rights.

First Amendment: .....the right of the People peaceably to assemble... Does that refer to government sponsored entities?

Fourth Amendment: The right of the People to be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects.... Does the word "People" refer to government sponsored entities?

Ninth Amendment: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the People.....Does the word "People" refer to government sponsored entities?

Tenth Amendment: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the People....Does the word "People" refer to government sponsored entities?

(I did not include the Fifth and Sixth Amendments because the terminology used is "No Person," which cannot be argued to refer to some government organization, yet clarifies even more sharply the term "People" meaning specifically "Individuals.")

The original verbiage of the Second Amendment stated: "A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the People..." clearly indicates the population at large was considered to be potential militia members and, therefore, individuals had the right to keep and bear arms. The original words also go on to say there wasn't a requirement to keep and bear arms. The guys who discussed this apparently didn't think they would have to spell this stuff out in detail, so they dropped what they considered to be superfluous jibber-jabber.

Who would have thought that one word, "People," could be construed to mean "government sponsored entities only" in one Amendment, yet obviously refer to regular old population members (individuals) in the rest?
 

Electric Chicken

Jock
Supporter
I dunno that's more of a duhh to me.

You don't fight a long, bloody, sacrificial conflict like that only to turn around and insitute the same policies you fought against.

Truck drivers do but that's different. 😉😂
 

Rigjockey

In Gord we trust!
Supporter
I may be way off base here and if I am just fly past this post.

The second amendment was put in place so the People "citizens" could fight any tyrannical government as any good American would.

Why would citizens need semi- automatic, fully automatic guns?
Because the Government/ military has those same kind of weapons and much, very much more .

Yes I know every soldier in every military division has a duty to fight any enemies, foreign or DOMESTIC
But, What if the military armed and paid by the PEOPLE simply don't or are duped by a false flag operation?

Conquering a tyrannical government would require the same fire power from the people as the tyrannical government would use.

I hope I did not step on any toes here Butting into this thread and not being American
 

r3gulator3

FLATBED GANGSTER
Supporter
I may be way off base here and if I am just fly past this post.

The second amendment was put in place so the People "citizens" could fight any tyrannical government as any good American would.

Why would citizens need semi- automatic, fully automatic guns?
Because the Government/ military has those same kind of weapons and much, very much more .

Yes I know every soldier in every military division has a duty to fight any enemies, foreign or DOMESTIC
But, What if the military armed and paid by the PEOPLE simply don't or are duped by a false flag operation?

Conquering a tyrannical government would require the same fire power from the people as the tyrannical government would use.

I hope I did not step on any toes here Butting into this thread and not being American
Ever see what happens with average joe citizen starts a militia? Or how bout when one actually buys a tank? The governement loses its mind. Sieges take place, they even made a movie about the guy with the tank. Hillbillies that can shoot trap and make homemade tannerite will be using the same gorilla tactics used My our enemies since the 60s...you know the ones we created when we fought the revolutionary war.
 

ironpony

Professional Pot-Stirrer
Supporter
We are way past the Founders now. They never envisioned a government with millions of pages of regulations, taxes and laws.

Regardless, you did not address the deliberate use of the word "People" in the Second Amendment in comparison to the rest of the Bill of Rights.

First Amendment: .....the right of the People peaceably to assemble... Does that refer to government sponsored entities?

Fourth Amendment: The right of the People to be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects.... Does the word "People" refer to government sponsored entities?

Ninth Amendment: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the People.....Does the word "People" refer to government sponsored entities?

Tenth Amendment: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the People....Does the word "People" refer to government sponsored entities?

(I did not include the Fifth and Sixth Amendments because the terminology used is "No Person," which cannot be argued to refer to some government organization, yet clarifies even more sharply the term "People" meaning specifically "Individuals.")

The original verbiage of the Second Amendment stated: "A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the People..." clearly indicates the population at large was considered to be potential militia members and, therefore, individuals had the right to keep and bear arms. The original words also go on to say there wasn't a requirement to keep and bear arms. The guys who discussed this apparently didn't think they would have to spell this stuff out in detail, so they dropped what they considered to be superfluous jibber-jabber.

Who would have thought that one word, "People," could be construed to mean "government sponsored entities only" in one Amendment, yet obviously refer to regular old population members (individuals) in the rest?
The original body of language of the entire document is different than what we ended up with. Those original statements and $5 will buy you a fancy cup of coffee, and most likely lined Martha Washington's cat's litter box. What was passed by Congress and ratified by the States is what counts.
 

ironpony

Professional Pot-Stirrer
Supporter
The founders were literally like "Look at Britain. See that? Yeah we're the opposite. We even have better dental."
You'd be wrong. Much of the basis of what the Constitution is based on is rooted in English Common Law as it existed in the 18th century.
 

Duck

Custom title
Supporter
Dang tootin'! By the time trump gets done wiping his ass with the Constitution, there won't be much left.
How much of a hypocrite can you be to you say this, right after you defended the scum who want to steal our firearms in clear violation of our constitutional rights?

Post one single example of Trump violating anybody's constitutional rights.

I mean in real life, not the delusional fantasy camp you live in.
 

ironpony

Professional Pot-Stirrer
Supporter
How much of a hypocrite can you be to you say this, right after you defended the scum who want to steal our firearms in clear violation of our constitutional rights?

Post one single example of Trump violating anybody's constitutional rights.

I mean in real life, not the delusional fantasy camp you live in.
Go get a rabies shot before you hurt someone @Duck - and wipe the foam from around yer mouth fer gawds sake.
 

Duck

Custom title
Supporter

It's click-bait but it's written by a moron who says "the 90's" to refer to a period going back at least to the 1960's

:rolllaugh3:

Manual crank windows, triangle vent windows, gas caps located behind the license plate, bench seats, hood ornaments, foot operated headlight dimmer switches ,... Those things were all extremely popular in the 90's.

Power windows hadn't been invented yet. 🤣
 

Injun

Rabid Squaw
Staff member
Supporter
The original body of language of the entire document is different than what we ended up with. Those original statements and $5 will buy you a fancy cup of coffee, and most likely lined Martha Washington's cat's litter box. What was passed by Congress and ratified by the States is what counts.
Correct. We got what we got.
You still haven't answered the question: If "People" refers to all the yous and mes out there in the First, Fourth, Ninth and Tenth Amendments, how does it change to "government sanctioned entities only" in the Second?

Dang tootin'! By the time trump gets done wiping his ass with the Constitution, there won't be much left.
They all do it. It's not just one guy and it started as soon as the last guy who was in on writing it wasn't around anymore. Today, it seems like the word "unconstitutional" refers to anything the guy you don't like does that your guy just did for eight years. That goes for both sides.
 
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