DEF Quality ( not the sensor )

RamblingPete

Well-Known Member
Thread starter #1
I been reading up about DEF Quality and a lot of times it's the sensor . I don't think that's my problem , or at least solely. Awhile back I started having DEF Quality issues so started writing down where I topped it up and put a check if I got issues then would follow up by toppling up there again at next avail opportunity and found most of the time it was conclusive . For instance I found that on my main run if I topped it up in Demoine or Shelby IOWA that I had quality issues every time. 3 both locations . So I stopped using any Iowa DEF and have not had any issues till today . Had 1/4 tank of DEF so filled it in Jasper FL and within minutes starting having DEF issues .
Pretty sure it's actually quality because as I stated I figured out where issue centered and solved it before .
So why is there no way to test the quality at the stations , or is it simply they don't? I know it's hard to test a water based fluid for water but there must be someway to measure the quality .
Second and more importantly , if the truck sensor says there's poor DEF in the tank why would it derate making it harder to burn off the poor DEF? Wouldn't it make more sense to burn it off inefficiently so you can put good DEF in it sooner ?
And finally why is there no class action lawsuit in the US for using inferior pollution units ? I mean it's only in the US that DPF issues are rampant . Sure some cases turn up in other countries but even in 3rd world countries the DPF units by percentage are far superior to our own .
This is like the damned chipped cards . Ethiopia had these nearly impenetrable cards 15 years before we did in America. I'm tired of being told we're the most advanced nation in the world yet we use everything inferior to 3rd world countries . Can we please just start acting like the most advanced country and use the actual functional equipment and products that highly advanced countries like say Pakistan are using ... at the least ?
 

ironpony

Professional Pot-Stirrer
Supporter
#2
You can thank International for the DEF quality BS.

When the truck and engine manufacturers were designing the EPA 2010 equipment, Cummins and Detroit went the combined SCR/DEF with EGR route. Navistar went with "massive EGR" in the MaxxForce engines. SCR/DEF is a relatively mature technology - it's been used in Europe for years. EGR is the worst joke ever pulled on a diesel engine.

The next part becomes a little hazy, because Navistar never owned up to when they discovered the MaxxForce engines weren't working properly.

International sued Freightliner, PACCAR, Detroit Diesel and Cummins in federal court claiming that guys like you would just pour water in the DEF tank to get around the cost of DEF fluid. What motivated this is debatable. Getting a step on the competition to market? Delaying the competition because Navistar was having development problems?

The courts sided with International forcing Freightliner and PACCAR into providing the derate feature to make sure you weren't running around with an empty DEF tank. The quality sensor was forced to prevent you from pouring water in the DEF tank.

Thanks International. :biggrin-2:

A pox on your cursed MaxxForce engines!

:thefinger::thefinger:

Oh, that's right... you're still suffering the consequences of MaxxFarce!

And so are the rest of us. :frown:
 
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ironpony

Professional Pot-Stirrer
Supporter
#3
The issue with a class action against DPF involves political arguments. If you want to raise that one, start a thread in Politics.
 

gearjammer

jammer
Staff member
Supporter
#5
if the sensor is a problem can you just bypass the damn thing.
I always said that if I ever had to pour fertilizer in my truck I would get out of trucking, well I am out of trucking although because of other reasons, lol.

BTW I know a guy that experimenting with dissolving 100% nitrogen and filtering it somehow and has been using it in his ford F-250, says he is still experimenting but so far it is working.

he is suppose to show me what he is doing once he has it prefected
 

CMT

Well-Known Member
#6
I been reading up about DEF Quality and a lot of times it's the sensor . I don't think that's my problem , or at least solely. Awhile back I started having DEF Quality issues so started writing down where I topped it up and put a check if I got issues then would follow up by toppling up there again at next avail opportunity and found most of the time it was conclusive . For instance I found that on my main run if I topped it up in Demoine or Shelby IOWA that I had quality issues every time. 3 both locations . So I stopped using any Iowa DEF and have not had any issues till today . Had 1/4 tank of DEF so filled it in Jasper FL and within minutes starting having DEF issues .
Pretty sure it's actually quality because as I stated I figured out where issue centered and solved it before .
So why is there no way to test the quality at the stations , or is it simply they don't? I know it's hard to test a water based fluid for water but there must be someway to measure the quality .
Second and more importantly , if the truck sensor says there's poor DEF in the tank why would it derate making it harder to burn off the poor DEF? Wouldn't it make more sense to burn it off inefficiently so you can put good DEF in it sooner ?
And finally why is there no class action lawsuit in the US for using inferior pollution units ? I mean it's only in the US that DPF issues are rampant . Sure some cases turn up in other countries but even in 3rd world countries the DPF units by percentage are far superior to our own .
This is like the damned chipped cards . Ethiopia had these nearly impenetrable cards 15 years before we did in America. I'm tired of being told we're the most advanced nation in the world yet we use everything inferior to 3rd world countries . Can we please just start acting like the most advanced country and use the actual functional equipment and products that highly advanced countries like say Pakistan are using ... at the least ?
For what it's worth, I had the same issue a few months back and it ended up being a bad relay. Pulled the relay and one of the prongs had corroded off causing my "random" aggravating DEF issues.
 

ironpony

Professional Pot-Stirrer
Supporter
#7
For what it's worth, I had the same issue a few months back and it ended up being a bad relay. Pulled the relay and one of the prongs had corroded off causing my "random" aggravating DEF issues.
Ya know, weird wiring problems have caused many of the problems on my truck. DPF, regen, EGR, etc.

Ten years ago the roads were not in nearly the bad condition they are today. This causes the hits the suspension takes to be stronger and more frequent - which are transmitted through the frame. Wires are chaffing more, and insulation gets brittle with age - I saw these same symptoms on military aircraft in the Air Force.

Any problem on a truck more than three or four years old, wiring should be high on the probable cause list.
 
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CMT

Well-Known Member
#8
Ya know, weird wiring problems have caused many of the problems on my truck. DPF, regen, EGR, etc.

Ten years ago the roads were not in nearly the bad conditioning are today. This causes the hits the suspension takes to be stronger and more frequent - which is transmitted through the frame. Wires are chaffing more, and insulation gets brittle with age - I saw these same symptoms on military aircraft in the Air Force.

Any problem on a truck more than three or four years old, wiring should be high on the probable cause list.
I think Michigan roads take the cake for that award.. then again there's another stretch thru Kansas that'll rock your kidneys out too..

True, because I've had several wire and airline chafing occurrences over the years. The wiring is the most aggravating because sometimes it can be a royal pain in the ass to find since so many things piggy back off one other.

My DEF issue was supposedly a leveling sensor, but actually wasn't. Truck would derate at any random time, gauges would flash low DEF or parked regen required, etc. plus my radio would work randomly, which is really odd about all this. Listening to the alarms blare off and on hundreds of times while driving, then one day I was heading out to DOT Foods in Mt Sterling, IL and engine light came on, then a few seconds later red engine shut down light came on and it shut the truck down while I was driving. I coasted to the shoulder and called breakdown. Wrecker came out and cleared the codes which I'd had done several times already by another shop while waiting for the leveler sensor to come in so they could replace it. Codes cleared and truck fired right up. Wrecker followed me to the International dealer in Springfield and that's when they discovered it was a bad relay. I honestly would've never guessed that. Plus it's just strange how that corroded relay took my radio away.. It's amazing how some of the things in these trucks were engineered..
 
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