Truckers the new share croppers

mosinee dave

Well-Known Member
#4
I never could figure out anyone with a lick of sense would get involved with a co that lease purchases trucks to the drivers. They control the freight and can slow you down at any time. If you can find recources to get money other than the co you can pull the pin on the co and go some where else . Other wise they have you by the short hairs.
 

GAnthony

Well-Known Member
#5
I never could figure out anyone with a lick of sense would get involved with a co that lease purchases trucks to the drivers. They control the freight and can slow you down at any time. If you can find recources to get money other than the co you can pull the pin on the co and go some where else . Other wise they have you by the short hairs.
i think it is because they are so fed up with having a boss or supervisor looking over thier shoulders all the time.

i always say a better way is to be a company man/woman for about maybe 5 years, and learn the many different aspects, and in the meantime, maybe take online study courses for business management.

THEN, buy a truck outright, rather than to lease.

but like PT Barnum always said, "there's a sucker born every minute".
 
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Injun

Rabid Squaw
Staff member
Supporter
#6
I never could figure out anyone with a lick of sense would get involved with a co that lease purchases trucks to the drivers. They control the freight and can slow you down at any time. If you can find recources to get money other than the co you can pull the pin on the co and go some where else . Other wise they have you by the short hairs.
Since I actually read the article and have actual hands-on experience successfully leasing a truck through a company program, I can say these guys were taken advantage of because of their immigration status. This is a good reason why illegal immigration has to be put in check. These guys can't just go find another job and the company knows it. A legitimate company will not allow drivers to exceed HoS regulations, even in intrastate operations like these port jobs.

That said.. Even farm work, landscaping and roofing operations that rely on illegal labor pay better than what these guys claim they're consistently getting. Something about these stories is not passing the sniff test.
 

Tazz

Infidel
Supporter
#7
Three takeaways.

One is a push for hourly pay. Most legit logistic companies have already gone to that.

It is not Targets, Walmarts, Costcos, or TJ Max problem to enforce fair labor in transportation despite the claims made.

The running theme is they never made any money. Then why in the hell were you still working there in week #2?
 

ironpony

Well-Known Member
Supporter
#8
Probably the worst lease-op screw job I've ever heard of.

Any lease purchase operator really.
It depends on the contract language, carrier management culture, and what the aims of the carrier are. A lot of these outfits are used truck lots that just happen to move some freight.

i think it is because they are so fed up with having a boss or supervisor looking over thier shoulders all the time.
You sayin' we un's don't always play well with others?

:D

i always say a better way is to be a company man/woman for about maybe 5 years, and learn the many different aspects, and in the meantime, maybe take online study courses for business management.
Leasing a truck means you are running a trucking business - which leads to the thought it might be good to know something about how trucking works and develop some business management skills.

THEN, buy a truck outright, rather than to lease.
That's the best way to get it done. I don't ever recommend leasing.

but like PT Barnum always said, "there's a sucker born every minute".
That's not to say PT Barnum ever had one put over on him.

o_O

It's possible to be successful leading a truck.

Since I actually read the article and have actual hands-on experience successfully leasing a truck through a company program, I can say these guys were taken advantage of because of their immigration status. This is a good reason why illegal immigration has to be put in check. These guys can't just go find another job and the company knows it. A legitimate company will not allow drivers to exceed HoS regulations, even in intrastate operations like these port jobs.

That said.. Even farm work, landscaping and roofing operations that rely on illegal labor pay better than what these guys claim they're consistently getting. Something about these stories is not passing the sniff test.
I have a hard time seeing that this is all an illegal labor problem. How would an illegal obtain a US CDL these days? Sure, there are scams and CDL mills in operation, but for a port-wide scam going on, I just don't see it.

Three takeaways.

One is a push for hourly pay. Most legit logistic companies have already gone to that.
A large segment of the industry isn't going hourly anytime soon, even though the new technology certainly makes it more feasible.

It is not Targets, Walmarts, Costcos, or TJ Max problem to enforce fair labor in transportation despite the claims made.
There's a moral imperative for any business to not subcontract to shady operators, exploiting labor - especially to this extent.

The running theme is they never made any money. Then why in the hell were you still working there in week #2?
Depends on what the consequences of walking away from the contract are, and whether the leasee understood what he was getting into, their ability to financially withstand those consequences, etc.
 

Mike

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#9
No lease purchase is good, but some are better than others. (can't read the article, it redirects me to a page trying to get me to subscribe to the publication)

Dealbreakers for me on a lease

  • Truck - If I don't have an option to take the truck somewhere else, I'm not lease purchasing the truck
  • Prices - If it's not competitive with dealer cost, I'm not lease purchasing the truck
  • Dispatching - If I can't choose my own loads from a load board, I'm not signing papers on the truck.
Those things right there eliminate about 98% of the lease purchase programs out there for me.

I did a lease purchase, ultimately got out of it, not because of the lease agreement, but because of the truck. I was in one of the best programs at the time, IMO, and I still would never do it again. The carrier simply has too much power over you and your decisions. Weekly truck payments, weekly insurance payments, weekly everything payments. It takes you out of business owner mode, and tries to keep you in the mode of chasing a weekly paycheck. It's done like this on purpose to keep you running hard.

Leasing removes options from you in terms of earning a profit. As a lease purchase driver, I was forced to make weekly insurance payments to an insurance company of the carrier's choice. They claimed we got great discounts, they were FOS. I learned quickly when I got my own truck that I could save a significant amount of money each year with a different insurance provider.

Most use the company fuel card when doing a lease purchase. They accept the discount that the carrier gives them. No matter the size of the carrier, you can do better on your own by simply paying the fuel bill yourself through somebody like NASTC. Might be other options as well, but make no mistake, the carrier is probably making a profit off of your fuel purchases.

Some lease because of bad credit. If your credit is so bad that you can't qualify for a truck, drive somebody else's truck and save up for your own. Save up for an older truck that you can pay cash for. Whatever you do, don't overpay for a truck, because the profit margins are just not that high in this business.

Again on the bad credit. If you have bad credit, do some soul searching and be honest with yourself as to why you have bad credit. Sometimes, it was truly out of your control, usually not though. I had bad credit. No, I had horrible credit. Most of it wasn't do to my spending, but it was spending that I allowed someone else to do. In the end, I paid the price and fixed it. I learned, I suffered, I somehow paid things off without declaring bankruptcy, and now I can call the shots with a rating of well over 800. Again, it may be your fault, might be partially your fault, or it might not be your fault at all. Regardless, address it and fix it. Bad credit can be very limiting for someone trying to operate a business like this.
 

ironpony

Well-Known Member
Supporter
#10
No lease purchase is good, but some are better than others. (can't read the article, it redirects me to a page trying to get me to subscribe to the publication)

Dealbreakers for me on a lease

  • Truck - If I don't have an option to take the truck somewhere else, I'm not lease purchasing the truck
  • Prices - If it's not competitive with dealer cost, I'm not lease purchasing the truck
  • Dispatching - If I can't choose my own loads from a load board, I'm not signing papers on the truck.
Those things right there eliminate about 98% of the lease purchase programs out there for me.

I did a lease purchase, ultimately got out of it, not because of the lease agreement, but because of the truck. I was in one of the best programs at the time, IMO, and I still would never do it again. The carrier simply has too much power over you and your decisions. Weekly truck payments, weekly insurance payments, weekly everything payments. It takes you out of business owner mode, and tries to keep you in the mode of chasing a weekly paycheck. It's done like this on purpose to keep you running hard.

Leasing removes options from you in terms of earning a profit. As a lease purchase driver, I was forced to make weekly insurance payments to an insurance company of the carrier's choice. They claimed we got great discounts, they were FOS. I learned quickly when I got my own truck that I could save a significant amount of money each year with a different insurance provider.

Most use the company fuel card when doing a lease purchase. They accept the discount that the carrier gives them. No matter the size of the carrier, you can do better on your own by simply paying the fuel bill yourself through somebody like NASTC. Might be other options as well, but make no mistake, the carrier is probably making a profit off of your fuel purchases.

Some lease because of bad credit. If your credit is so bad that you can't qualify for a truck, drive somebody else's truck and save up for your own. Save up for an older truck that you can pay cash for. Whatever you do, don't overpay for a truck, because the profit margins are just not that high in this business.

Again on the bad credit. If you have bad credit, do some soul searching and be honest with yourself as to why you have bad credit. Sometimes, it was truly out of your control, usually not though. I had bad credit. No, I had horrible credit. Most of it wasn't do to my spending, but it was spending that I allowed someone else to do. In the end, I paid the price and fixed it. I learned, I suffered, I somehow paid things off without declaring bankruptcy, and now I can call the shots with a rating of well over 800. Again, it may be your fault, might be partially your fault, or it might not be your fault at all. Regardless, address it and fix it. Bad credit can be very limiting for someone trying to operate a business like this.
I participated in a lease plan you would have rejected out of hand. I made much more money than company drivers were at the time, and was ultimately successful.

I own that truck today.

As I said previously, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.
 

Mike

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#11
I participated in a lease plan you would have rejected out of hand. I made much more money than company drivers were at the time, and was ultimately successful.

I own that truck today.

As I said previously, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.
Plenty operate in lease deals that I won't touch, and likely make money in them. These are my deal breakers, because they won't work in the way I choose to run.

If I'm dispatched, that means I will fight with someone on a regular basis to be home every week. And as long as there is a 70 hour rule, I have no reason to be out for more than a week.

If you cannot move the truck to another carrier, there is an increased risk. You hope that things will continue to go well, but if they don't, you find yourself in a bind and unable to fix the situation yourself without walking away from the money you have invested. You have to be very confident that the freight base and rates are solid, and that you will never be at risk of dealing with an actual dispatcher that is going to hold things against you if you don't cater to them. Some of the smaller carriers actually still have human dispatchers who manually assign loads to the drivers. I hope to never be under that type of dispatch again.
 

Drifter McDuck

Well-Known Member
#12
There are pro's and cons... I'm in a lease purchase because my credit got obliterated in a nasty divorce involving a crooked cook county attorney that basically pays off the judges. Been struggling to get back on my feet for years but it's hard when 60% of your income is court ordered to someone else. Anyway, in my case, I pick my own loads from a load board. If the carrier doesn't have anything in my area, I have the ability to go through outside brokers, and have done so on several occasions. I got a well
Maintained truck at a price slightly above market value but still reasonable. And it will be paid off in less than 3 years. There are several advantages... for starters, since they do weekly settlements, I don't have the expense of factoring. They also cover cargo insurance, and I pay the carrier rate for bobtail and phys dam, which is well below what I would be paying under my own authority. The carrier takes care of taxes, permits, base plates at cost, and charges back at a weekly rate. Their maintenance program is more like maintenance insurance. I pay .15 per mile to be in the program, and in exchange I'm covered on all routine maintenance and repairs. In the event repairs are more than the trucks worth, I return the truck and get a replacement with comparable mileage, with my previous payments transferred towards the replacement truck. All things considered, they earn their 25% of linehaul. The insurance and factoring savings pretty much accounts for that 25%, not to mention the number of hours I am able to save on administrative tasks. My settlement statements are detailed and easy to understand. I still plan to go independent eventually, but this gig is great training for that next step. It's kind of like having the freedom of being independent, but with a safety net. I'm also leasing a trailer through them, but I'm not required to. As long as the trailer is road-worthy, I can purchase my own or lease from someone else. I'm pretty happy with this program.
 

ironpony

Well-Known Member
Supporter
#14
Fasified papers.
Easy.
Its not that easy, and starts with a valid SSAN. Part and parcel of the frderal secure ID program (only MN and MO are noncompliant) is verification of the SSAN. Its not "easy" to obtain a clean SSAN under fraudulent circumstances. Most employers just accept whatever an employee provides - this is why E-Verify should be mandatory for employment. In the transportation industry, the SSAN is under scrutiny to obtain a CDL. These folks are port workers - they're going to be required to get a TWIC card as well, and there's the federal background check that goes along with that.

...not so easy.
 
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Injun

Rabid Squaw
Staff member
Supporter
#15
Its not that easy, and starts with a valid SSAN. Part and parcel of the frderal secure ID program (all states are complying now) is verification of the SSAN. Its not "easy" to obtain a clean SSAN under fraudulent circumstances. Most employers just accept whatever an employee provides - this is why E-Verify should be mandatory for employment. In the transportation industry, the SSAN is under scrutiny to obtain a CDL. These folks are port workers - they're going to be required to get a TWIC card as well, and there's the federal background check that goes along with that.

...not so easy.
I was not asked for my Social Security number when I got TWIC or hazmat.

And you apparently don't remember when Swift's Millington school was "raided" and briefly suspended over foreign worker credentials. ...or the dozen or so cases across the US in which nonqualified immigrants were able to get CDLs through fraudulent means with help from administrators and even certain DMV employees.

California ports are good ol boy arm-bump operations where certain (local) carriers don't have to be hassled by TWIC checkins and documentation.
 

ironpony

Well-Known Member
Supporter
#16
I was not asked for my Social Security number when I got TWIC or hazmat.

And you apparently don't remember when Swift's Millington school was "raided" and briefly suspended over foreign worker credentials. ...or the dozen or so cases across the US in which nonqualified immigrants were able to get CDLs through fraudulent means with help from administrators and even certain DMV employees.

California ports are good ol boy arm-bump operations where certain (local) carriers don't have to be hassled by TWIC checkins and documentation.
Millington happened before the secure ID program was put into effect. Its purpose is to prevent a terrorist from obtaining a clean US ID.

Real ID Act...

REAL ID Act - Wikipedia

I reapplied recently for my TWIC card. You have to supply a valid state-issued birth certificate. The application form requires your SSAN. The federal background check requires your SSAN and fingerprints.

Every port I've been to for the last couple of years has completely lost any trace of "good ole boyism." Maybe it was the presence of Coast Guard and DHS officials.
 
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Injun

Rabid Squaw
Staff member
Supporter
#18
a valid state-issued birth certificate
You have any idea how easy it is to obtain one?

I had to get mine from Oregon as part of getting my CDL renewed last time. I went online and ordered it with no requisite proof of identity and had it in my hands in under three days.

Need a Social Security number? Take that fraudulently acquired official state birth certificate to the local Social Security office and ask for a duplicate card because you lost yours.

After you have these two pieces of identification, get a piece of mail sent to you under the fraudulent name and then go to DMV. Now, you have a state issued picture ID card.

Everything will check out because you have the birth certificate of a real person, you have a valid SSN and you have a valid ID. Now, go get your CDL. Takes a few months, but that really is how easy it is.
 

Duck

Quack
Supporter
#19
Y'all missed the root cause of this:

For decades, short-haul truckers at the nation’s ports relied on cheap clunkers to move goods to nearby warehouses and rail yards.

With little up-front investment, drivers – most of them independent contractors who owned their own trucks – could make a decent living squeezing the last miles from dilapidated big rigs that weren’t suited for the open road.

In October 2008, that changed dramatically in southern California, home of the nation’s busiest ports, Los Angeles and Long Beach. State officials, fed up with deadly diesel fumes from 16,000 outdated trucks, ordered the entire fleet replaced with new, cleaner rigs.

Suddenly, this obscure but critical collection of trucking companies faced a $2.5 billion crossroads unlike anything experienced at other U.S. ports.

Instead of digging into their own pockets to undo the environmental mess they helped create, the companies found a way to push the cost onto individual drivers, who are paid by the number and kinds of containers they move, not by the hour.​

It's CARB.

Those can hauler companies basically had a choice. Go out of business or fleece your drivers.

The fact so many of the victims are (possibly illegal) immigrants is because they're easier to exploit.
 

ironpony

Well-Known Member
Supporter
#20
Umm, You don't need to be a U.S. citizen to get a TWIC card, Just sayin'.
No, you don't. The background check will out an illegal.

You have any idea how easy it is to obtain one?

I had to get mine from Oregon as part of getting my CDL renewed last time. I went online and ordered it with no requisite proof of identity and had it in my hands in under three days.

Need a Social Security number? Take that fraudulently acquired official state birth certificate to the local Social Security office and ask for a duplicate card because you lost yours.

After you have these two pieces of identification, get a piece of mail sent to you under the fraudulent name and then go to DMV. Now, you have a state issued picture ID card.

Everything will check out because you have the birth certificate of a real person, you have a valid SSN and you have a valid ID. Now, go get your CDL. Takes a few months, but that really is how easy it is.
You still have to prove your identity to get the birth certificate - by producing a valid ID. You can't walk into vital statistics in any state, and just demand a birth certificate.

Even in the oddly lawless state of Oregon.

These are the ID requirements in OR, which oddly mirror most other states. Even in section 3 (other forms of ID) there is enough there that you would have to have an ID in the first place to obtain those records. But that's the object of this... to obtain an ID that you don't have. Plus, all three of the documents have to be dated within 30-days with the identity of the dead person you seek to steal the identity from. That's a pretty tall order for someone still drying their back off with little intimate knowledge of how the country works.

Oregon Vital Records Acceptable Proofs of Identity Documents Must Be No More Than 30 Days Old Expired Documents Are Not Acceptable If you are appearing in person, any one of the first set of documents is acceptable. If you are faxing in your document or mailing in your order and your ID does not have your mailing address on it, include a second document with your current address. Any ONE of the following documents:

1. Current, valid Oregon driver’s license, permit, or ID card.
2. Current, valid passport.
3. Current, valid out-of-state driver’s license or ID card.
4. Current student body card with name and picture (high school students only). OR…

Any ONE of the following documents, plus one more document showing current address:

1. Armed Services ID card.
2. Selective service card or military discharge paper (must be original).
3. U.S. Alien registration card with picture.
4. U.S. Immigration or naturalization papers.
5. Tribal membership or ID card with picture (without picture accepted as one of three pieces of ID, below).
6. Concealed weapon permit with picture.
7. Matrícula Consular card.

OR… Any THREE of the following documents as long as one shows current address:

1. Official papers issued by courts of record which include date of birth.
2. Official corrections department or parole papers showing date of birth and identity.
3. Vehicle registration or title.
4. Personalized check, savings account passbook, or monthly account statement. 5. Check guarantee card (NOT a debit card. Must say “Check Guarantee Card”). 6. Pistol or firearms permit.
7. State hunting or fishing license.
8. Recent utility or other bill with current address.
9. Recent paycheck stub or paycheck. (Official company type only).
10. Company identification card.
11. Voter registration card issued by a county elections department.
12. Valid food stamp, welfare or unemployment identification.
13. Medical or hospital card of identification.
14. Tax statements – W-2 forms, etc.
15. Auto insurance policy.
16. Union membership card.
 
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